Home Forum Ask A Member 1961 Johnson 40 (RDSL-23) stops pumping water

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  • #243792
    jdunham
    Participant

      Hello,
      I am struggling with a water pumping issue on my 1961 johnson 40, long shaft.

      Symptom:
      pumps ok initially, maybe 20 seconds, and then slows down and stops. exhaust in the water jacket.

      Thermostat in or out doesnt seem to make a difference, thermostat cover on/off doesnt make a difference. Disconnecting the automatic choke to use the hose barb as a telltale shows the same thing (plug off the hose to prevent air entering though the choke). Water for the first 20 seconds or so and then just exhaust puffing out. Running with and without the intake plate/screen on the gearcase doesnt matter.

      The impeller, shaft seal at top of water pump housing, driveshaft tube O rings, and all 4 water tube grommets are new. I checked the thermostat in a pot on the stove and it seems fine.

      120psi on both cylinders and no sign of water on the plugs.

      I checked the gearcase passages and there is no blockage between the water pump and the intake plate that could be starving the pump on the intake side.

      I have also tried the old impeller (it looked and felt fine but is at least 20 years old) in case my new one is faulty. No change.

      Running in a tank with water up to the lower mounts, the water pump is a good 7″ under water.

      The block feels hot to me, I run it until i get nervous about heat and then shut it down to cool. Thinking that the overtemp sensor for the dash light is just a switch, I have it hooked to my multimeter on continuity to watch for it closing. I dont know if it works, but I have not seen it close the circuit before I shut things down.

      #243794
      bobw
      Participant

        US Member - 1 Year (includes $3 online payment fee)

        Is the impeller plate on the water pump sealed tight to the gearcase? If not you could be sucking air. Also, are the water tubes properly seating in the grommets? Any holes in the water tubes? Is the water tube gasket on the pump housing sealed good?

        Bob

        1937 Champion D2C Deluxe Lite Twin
        1954 Johnson CD-11
        1957 Evinrude Fastwin 18
        1958 Johnson QD-19
        1958 Johnson FD-12
        1959 Johnson QD-20

        “Every 20 minute job is only a broken bolt away from a 3-day project.”
        "Every time you remove a broken or seized bolt an angel gets his wings."

        • This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by bobw.
        #243816
        jdunham
        Participant

          I did not apply sealant to the plate or the base of the water pump housing. I will try that. There is no evidence of old sealant there.

          I am confident that the water tubes are properly seated and that the tubes themselves are in excellent condition. I have had the lower unit of repeatedly trying to sort this out and have been very careful with tube alignment each time. The water tube grommets are new (top and bottom of the supply and return tubes) and are nice, soft rubber. I believe that they are sealing well.

          #243848
          fleetwin
          Participant

            US Member - 2 Years

            Give us more on the history of this engine…Is it new to you? If not, did it ever pump correctly? Sounds like you have thought and looked at most everything. Sounds like the gearcase is buried deep in the water also. How did the aluminum impeller housing look? Was the little vent hole clear? You speak of running it with the thermostat in and out, made no difference. How are you determining that it stops pumping water? Is the plastic thermostat housing and check valve/spring in place?
            As far as sealing the SS impeller plate, I don’t think that would make too much difference when running the gearcase real deep in the test tank at lower speeds. Good sealing is required when running on a boat at higher speeds when the water level drops and the water pump gets surrounded by exhaust. BUT, you need to check the condition of the gearcase casting underneath the SS impeller plate, perhaps it has eroded away allowing exhaust to be pulled in under the pump. Any evidence of broken water pump screws in the past? Perhaps there was a botched thread repair or something like that creating a sealing problem….

            #243854
            jdunham
            Participant

              Thanks, Im happy to dig into anything that anyone can suggest at this point.

              A little history.
              This motor was/is my fathers. He picked it up used maybe 35 years ago. We used it fairly regularly without issues until about 15 years ago when the arm on the throttle broke. Ill get the name wrong, but its the short plate that is peened onto the endo of the rod with the butterfly plate. the plate broke in half at the locking screw. It sat for a few more years and mice got in and made a real mess under the hood. wires and hoses damaged. corrosion from waste. It was taken apart at that time and sat in boxes until this summer when I got sick of walking past it in that state. I repaired the broken part and put the rest of the motor back together. It seems like it is going to run fine. It needs tuning but I have not dared run it long enough to get to that yet.

              This motor has seen salt water and there is corrosion on the lower unit. There is also minor pitting on the impeller housing. None of the sealing surfaces of the gearcase, impeller plate, or impeller housing are compromised, I just sealed them together last night so can do another test today. The worst corrosion is around the lowest intake screen, the rolled up part. I will inspect that area closely to look for any direct connection to the exhaust side. Someone appears to have knocked off and welded on the intake side (port) of the ventilation plate. Its a little ugly and some weld burn in has created a few voids around the intake plate that would allow water to go around the plate/screen instead of through. This is unsightly, but I did not think it was a functional issue.
              The water pump screws and their holes all look and feel good and original. The shaft has a slight polished groove where the impeller seal rides but not enough to concern me.

              As for determining that it stops pumping, my concerns came from lack of any water spit at the exhaust relief (seen in youtube videos of this vintage motor, not 1961 though) and the general feeling that it was getting too hot (based on touch and how quickly water steamed off the block)
              I removed the tstat and cover to observe the water flow at the top of the block, this is when I noticed that it would pump ok for a short while and then just slow down and stop. I also checked with everything back together correctly by removing the line that supplies the automatic choke to use that fitting as a telltale. I saw the same thing, water for a while and then just exhaust in little puffs

              The tstat holder (black thing), check valve, and ball are in place and look fine. However when I flush water into the drain tube (lower unit off) water comes out the supply tube with seemingly no resistance. That check valve should at least do something? I really dont know what the water path is inside this motor.

              I have 2 short videos, one shows flow (and then lack thereof) at the top of the tstat housing without tstat and cover and the other shows the puffs of smoke exiting what is normally the supply line to the automatic choke. I do not know how to share them here.

              I have gotten pretty good with the 1956-1958 motors, but this one is different enough that I may not have a good grasp of what it should be doing.

              I want to convert this motor to a short shaft. The boat it is on has a very tall transom extension to take the long shaft. Given the condition of the lower unit I will just replace it rather than rebuild it with a shorter shift rod. Its really ugly and needs resealing(and gears/bearings inspected…water may have sat in there), I dont think I can extract the skeg screws intact anyway. I am looking for a donor motor or gearcase locally. I was hoping to get it running and tuned to make sure that the rest of the motor was worth putting money into before I make a purchase.

              #243855
              jdunham
              Participant

                I took a close look at the gearcase just now. No indication of any path from exhaust to water tubes. The inside actually looks pretty good, if nothing else all that oil kept it coated and slowed corrosion.
                Attached are 2 pictures, one shows the corrosion that has eroded around the lower water intake (still no puncture into exhaust tube) and the other shows the burn in from welding at the lower rear of the side intake cover plate.

                #243894
                David Bartlett
                Participant

                  US Member - 2 Years

                  Did you check the screen and the area just above it for blockage. The holes in the bypass plate may allow the pump cavity to fill, so that it appears to pump when you first start it. If the screen is plugged up, it won’t allow pumping much above idle for very long. Something to look at?

                  David Bartlett
                  Pine Tree Boating Club Chapter

                  "I don't fully understand everything I know!"

                  #243900
                  need2fish
                  Participant

                    My goodness – that’s a pretty rough looking L/U.

                    Editorial aside — you’ve checked the inputs and from your description, they seem alright. I may have missed some of detail above but what about the outputs ? I.e. are the exits from the port side water jacket plugged ? Is the powerhead base gasket interfering with the water exit from the powerhead?

                    With a salt water motor – if it’s never been descaled inside, there must be some level of corrosion in the jacket and passages.

                    If you have a laser thermometer, you can identify the hotspots in the block.

                    K

                    NB. Water spitting or not spitting out of the exhaust relief is not a good measure of waterflow. I have some motors where there is none.

                    #243908
                    jdunham
                    Participant

                      I was also concerned about an intake clog so I ran it without that plate/screen installed and there was no change.

                      Need2fish, I am not sure what you mean by outputs? I did my pump flow check with the thermostat out and cover off and water spews out at first and then just stops. Not knowing the water path well, it looks to me like that should be a direct shot from the pump, into the jacket around the cylinders, and then out the hole in the head. With the cover on it should either be directed down to the return side of the pump or out the exhaust.
                      I also checked at the output near the top of the block that normally feeds the automatic choke, same thing. water at first and then just exhaust puffs.

                      I have never removed the powerhead, but i suspect that it is a replacement. The block itself just has that flat red primer on it, no top coat present anywhere. All of the other parts are (were) white. If it is not the original powerhead it was replaced more than 30 years ago prior to my father acquiring the motor. I asked him about overheating issues today and he said that he never had any trouble that he could recall.
                      Would this blockage you mention be something that should be either present or not? As in an installation error or is it something that might develop over time.

                      The lack of water spitting was just what prompted me to look into it more deeply when I thought it was running hot. The lack of water flow at the thermostat housing and auto choke supply is what really has me concerned. The motor does have the over temp sensor on it which I think is just a switch that will close when it gets hot enough. I dont know what temp that will happen at and I dont trust it yet.

                      I will track down a thermometer, I know I have one somewhere. My primary concern there is that if the jacket is empty there is going to be less heat transferred to the outer surfaces which could give some false numbers. How hot do I dare let things get? I see the thermostat is 140ish F.

                      Am I wrong in my thought that without the thermostat installed and with the cover removed, the pump should just spew water out the top? Or that with them both installed, there should be a constant stream from the auto choke supply barb?

                      #243921
                      jdunham
                      Participant

                        This is the port side of the motor.
                        circle 1 is the fitting I have been referring to as the auto choke supply. circle 2 is the return.

                        For my test, I am working with circle 1. I remove the hose and plug it to prevent air entering. I then put a short piece of hose on the fitting so that it terminates above the block. This is where I see the water followed by exhaust and no more water.

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