Home Forum Ask A Member ‘79 Johnson 25 hp

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  • #251040
    Geer Pyron
    Participant

      I’ve been working on a 1979 25 hp Johnson (25R79R) for a couple of weeks now.
      I’ve had it on a boat in the water a few times now. I have 120 psi compression on both cylinders and I’ve put new crank seals in.
      It starts and idles fine, but it can’t get up to speed when I throttle up.
      Typical of a high speed jet issue or maybe over propped.
      But it’s not.
      Or a throttle/spark sync issue.
      Don’t think it is (It has the fuel saver link that I’m wary of, but throttle opens all the way and spark advance travels to the stop).
      I hooked a tiny tach up to the top spark plug wire. 800 at idle (might be 400??)
      Hooked it up to bottom plug wire and got 400 ( might be 200???).
      I’m not 100% that I have the right setting on the tach.
      And I couldn’t get the WOT #s.
      Bottom cylinder is firing 1/2 the times.
      Sounds like that is the problem.
      But I just did a thorough spark test. Both jumped a 1/4” (or more!) gap.
      What am I missing?
      What else could be the issue.
      Unfortunately diagnostics ain’t my long suite.
      I’m getting a little frustrated.
      Any ideas?
      Please!
      Geer

      JMGP

      #251045
      frankr
      Participant

        US Member

        Well the idle probably is 800/400. I don’t think it would run as slow as 400/200

        Are you suspecting the bottom is only firing every other revolution? That would be interesting. I can’t think of an explanation for that one.

        #251046
        Geer Pyron
        Participant

          Frank, I’m not exactly sure what I’m suggesting. I guess the point was that it’s just not firing as often as the top and it seems like it is about 1/2 the number. It fluctuated some, but generally speaking, about 1/2 as often.
          Maybe let me go back in time and nix the part about #s and the tachometer and just ask what would cause the bottom cylinder not to fire, or to miss?
          I know that if you ran the motor you would immediately say, “ oh yea, you’ve got a blown doo-hickey and a worn out sumpinorother!”
          But it’s a mystery to me.
          Thanks,
          G

          JMGP

          #251062
          frankr
          Participant

            US Member

            I just dunno. But let’s consider what it probably ain’t. There is one driver coil that generates electricity and it charges the capacitor in the power pack two times per rev. So I can’t imagine any scenario where it would only charge every other rev on one side only. There is only one sensor under the flywheel to tell the power pack when to fire. It sends the power pack a positive voltage to fire one cylinder and a negative voltage to fire the other one–kind of like swapping a battery end for end twice per rev. The polarity is determined by the north and south poles in the magnet in the flywheel hub. Hm-m-m-damaged magnet? Kind of a far out guess. Besides, why only every other rev? Beyond that, there are the external coils and spark plugs. But again, why only every other time?

            I know this is just rambling with no answer. Sorry. Most people would just throw a new power pack at it and hope. I might also as a last resort, but I like for something to make sense.

            Tried new plugs?

            #251071
            frankr
            Participant

              US Member

              Still trying to make sense. Does the motor run normally with the tiny tach completely removed?

              #251076
              Geer Pyron
              Participant

                Frank,
                No. I only used the tachometer to help with diagnosing the issue.
                Because I suspected one cylinder wasn’t working right. I used the tach to figure out if I was right and which one wasn’t working right.
                The #s off the lower plug wire were way lower than the top.
                800 plus or minus vs 400 plus or minus.
                At idle, in gear.
                I have another power pack.
                Should I put it on and take back to the lake? Again.
                Tell me I’m way off base, but could something be wrong with cylinder head? Head gasket? Or the other gasket (it has the water jacket head covering). Maybe water getting into that lower cylinder and thus preventing it from firing as it should?
                My bother in law suggested stuck reed valve. Any chance?
                Thanks for your help
                G

                JMGP

                #251077
                fleetwin
                Participant

                  US Member - 2 Years

                  OK, well test equipment can oftentimes be deceptive and lead us down the wrong path? Does the engine sound like it is actually misfiring? Are you sure the timing is advancing fully and the economizer linkage is set up properly?
                  Any chance of posting a video of the engine running/misbehaving?

                  #251082
                  Geer Pyron
                  Participant

                    Fleet,
                    Now that you ask, no, the engine does not sound like it is misfiring. It sounds good!
                    When I started it in the test tank prior to the first trip out, I thought it was golden!
                    Only when I throttled up did I become aware of an issue. It simply wouldn’t go as it should have. And nothing I’ve done since then has changed anything.
                    And yes, I am wary of the tachometer and hate putting so much into its readings, specially since I don’t even know that I’m using it right (I am though).
                    I don’t have a video now, but I’ll take it out again soon and record what happens (or doesn’t).
                    And, I will go over the economize linkage again.
                    And I’ll double check in the manual to make sure I’m setting it correctly.
                    But I’m pretty sure it’s set up right.
                    I have a ‘58 35 horse that I run a lot and so have a little experience with them. Thanks to FrankS posting awhile back! It’s basically the same set up on the ‘79.
                    I was with my bro in law that first run, and I immediately said , “it’s the fuel saver linkage!” That was my gut. But I’ve checked it. A few times.
                    I feel really dumb.
                    G

                    JMGP

                    #251090
                    billw
                    Participant

                      US Member - 2 Years

                      I’m not sure as to why the Tiny Tach is reading so differently between cylinders. I don’t know exactly how they work. However, I have two thoughts to offer: First, I have a KV meter that works inductively, off the spark plug wires, like the Tiny Tach does. I get low KV when the cylinder is too rich, high KV when it is lean and in the middle when it is running as it should. Could this variation be causing the strange readings in RPM, on a Tiny Tach? Second, I have seen broken reed valves on those 32 cube OMCs, a few times. More often than any other model engine, that’s for sure. Some say to hold a piece of card board in front of the carb and see if you get fuel spitting back onto the card board; but I have found that test to be misleading. They spit back some, even when they’re working right. If I had that engine, I’d be at least taking a physical look at the reed valves, to rule them out, if nothing else. As a final thought, you mention that the spark jumps a 1/4″. Those ignitions should fire 3/8″ with no problems. I believe that is the factory-recommended gap for spark testing.

                      Long live American manufacturing!

                      • This reply was modified 2 years, 4 months ago by billw.
                      #251111
                      Geer Pyron
                      Participant

                        Okay, home from work and checking things out. First, make sure blue snappy spark jumps 3/8”.
                        Next, check reeds. I hope just looking through intake with a good light is sufficient. Should I gingerly push on each leaf with a long q-tip to make sure it isn’t stuck?
                        And wow, the carb does indeed spit back!
                        The plug in the air box was off and I could feel it on my arm as I ran it.
                        Then make sure carb is synchronized with mag. Then re-do economizer link.
                        As far as economizer link goes, I did notice that at full fast position of tiller grip both spark and throttle are at full open or maxed out. If I twist grip a little towards slow, both mag plate and throttle move, simultaneously.
                        This is unlike my ‘58 where there is a point at which mag is fully advanced and then a little more twist to fast and throttle is WO. Then when twisted towards slow, throttle closes a little first, then mag moves.
                        I’ll look into the operation of the later model economizers.
                        Then what?
                        Those things are easy.
                        Maybe recheck the carb for debris. Oh yea, I read that the fat doughnut gasket, with the clover leaf hole that goes on the tube inside DOES effect high speed performance. Contrary to what I’ve been told.
                        I’ll replace that to be safe.
                        All that done, if the problem persists?
                        Slap a new power pack on and hope?
                        Is there any credence in the idea that water may be entering the lower cylinder via a bad gasket thus preventing that cylinder from working as it should?
                        I read another forum thread that dealt with the same problem I’m having. Turned out to be a bad wire. It worked most of the time (at idle) but then would ground out or something when throttled up.
                        All my wires are good.
                        Thanks again for the help.
                        G

                        JMGP

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