Mid-1970s 85 HP Johnson Remote Control Problem

[fleetwin]

Dave

The engine pictured is definitely NOT an 1979 model.   It is a 1973 -1977  model.  Where are you seeing the model number making you feel it is a 1979 model?  Post more pictures for clarification.

This engine has the externally mounted power trim and tilt system, correct?   Two cylinders mounted externally, one on either side of the stern brackets along with the tilt motor and hydraulic pump, correct?

OK, the system is more or less self bleeding.  Therefore, you do not need to manually bleed the cylinders/pump in order to get the system to operate.  True, it will fuss for awhile while tilting until the air is bled out, but that is normal.  Simply running the unit up and down a few times bleeds the air out.

You are removing the top hydraulic hose (top of the tilt cylinder)?  If so, you won’t see any oil spraying out with the pump running in the up mode.  You should see oil spraying out when operated in the down mode though.   You would have to remove the tiny threaded oil line at the bottom of the cylinder in order to see oil spraying in the up mode.

But let’s back up a bit.   There is a “manual relief valve” at the bottom of the pump somewhere.  It is a small diameter screw with a large slot for a screw driver.  Usually these get corroded/jammed, you will be able to tell by the condition of the slotted screw slot.  If it will move, check to see that the valve is threaded in all they way, rotate the screw clockwise until is seats.  Someone may have messed with this when they were messing with the tilt motor.

There are no external leaks?  Does the pump/motor sound like it is struggling when operating?  Or, does it sound like the motor/pump is spinning “freely”?  If the pump seems to spin freely when the reservoir is full, perhaps the tilt motor was not installed correctly.  There is usually a shaft/coupling inside to connect the tilt motor/pump.  Perhaps someone left out the shaft/coupling, or perhaps they are broken.

In any event, the “blue oil” will need to be purged out of there once you get the system working.   Keep in mind that the reservoir is checked/filled when the cylinders are fully extended, in the up position.  Sure you will have to add fluid when the unit is down to get it to work, but you will have to keep “topping off” the reservoir as the cylinders extend to make sure the reservoir stays full.

[outbdnut2]

I checked the model number again and looked it up online and you are right, it’s a 1977 Evinrude.  The motor has been painted over except for the transom clamps and tilt/trim assembly, so initially, when I couldn’t find a model number,  I assumed it was a Johnson with the white remote control, but the brand doesn’t really matter.  The model number is 85799S,so it’s an Evinrude, and I mistakenly took that to be one of the earlier model number formats where the year was the “79” in the number – Sorry!  The model number riveted plate is on the port side of the motor on the transom mount, and hard to see it’s there with the motor tilted up.

Yes it has externally mounted trim and tilt components.  The cylinder on the port side appears to be just a shock absorber – no hydraulic lines going to it.  The hydraulic cylinder and the pump are both on the starboard side.  Photo below.

I saw that manual relief valve screw and took it out a couple days ago, but didn’t know its function – ran the trim motor and nothing came out or appeared to pump.

The motor does not sound like it’s struggleing at all in either direction, sounds like it’s spinning very freely, but when it would only run in one direction (down) with the switch wired wrong, my neighbor said he ran it and after a bit, the sound changed, so maybe something broke at that time.   This was before he took the line off and got any fluid out.

A couple days ago, I had that manual relief screw you mentioned out and ran it but didn’t know what it was for.   Good to know what it’s for now – Thank you!

The line going to the top of the cylinder has no fluid coming out when operated in the down mode – so it’s likely the motor is not coupled to the pump as you suggested.

When I look at the exploded view at marineengine,  the pump is the “Prestolite” version.

Today, I just went and took the photo below, and, without doing anything more to it,  tried the in/out switch again and something new!  While the motor runs now, there is an erratic rattle sound, that erratically comes and goes, like two pieces of metal sharply clanking/rattling, so I suspect something is broken or has come loose.   Your comment about the coupling from motor to pump comes to mind, so next, I’ll take the motor off the pump and see what I find.  The exploded view at Marine engine may help.

I have found no external leaks.

It’s raining today, so I’ll likely get to it agian tomorrow and hopefully find the problem .

Thank you again!

Dave

 

[fleetwin]

OK, cool, 1977 model.  The hydraulic cylinder on the left if the “trim cylinder”.  You should see one oil line connected to the bottom of this cylinder.  Yes, it does seem strange that it only has one hydraulic line, but it does work.  The trim cylinder only provides assistance trimming up to a certain range, then the tilt cylinder does the rest of the work.  The trim cylinder is basically “going for the ride” when working in the down mode, the tilt cylinder is doing all the work then.

And yes, this is the prestolite version of the pump and motor.  Trying to remove the pump assembly from the bracket is a pain because the tilt cylinder is in the way of the three mounting bolts.  You may be able to back them all out a bit at a time pushing the pump away from the bracket.

It might be easier to just remove the four pump retaining screws on the bottom though.   Find a clean container to place under there, then it is probably easiest to just lay on your back while extracting the screws, the fluid will all spill out once the pump starts to fall down from the housing.  Once it is drained, you can carefully remove the pump although you will have to remove the two hydraulic lines as well, probably best to get them loose before removing the pump screws.   Once the pump is removed, you can look up inside to see if the motor shaft has broken, or perhaps the coupling is damaged.

Keep in mind, this whole PTT assembly can be removed from the engine also, but it will require removing the engine from the transom.  Once the unit is removed, the engine will tilt up and down manually, this tilt lock lever/mechanism should still be in place, although there may be something there to disable it from locking…..

[fleetwin]

outbdnut2 wrote:

I checked the model number again and looked it up online and you are right, it’s a 1977 Evinrude.  The motor has been painted over except for the transom clamps and tilt/trim assembly, so initially, when I couldn’t find a model number,  I assumed it was a Johnson with the white remote control, but the brand doesn’t really matter.  The model number is 85799S,so it’s an Evinrude, and I mistakenly took that to be one of the earlier model number formats where the year was the “79” in the number – Sorry!  The model number riveted plate is on the port side of the motor on the transom mount, and hard to see it’s there with the motor tilted up.

Yes it has externally mounted trim and tilt components.  The cylinder on the port side appears to be just a shock absorber – no hydraulic lines going to it.  The hydraulic cylinder and the pump are both on the starboard side.  Photo below.

I saw that manual relief valve screw and took it out a couple days ago, but didn’t know its function – ran the trim motor and nothing came out or appeared to pump.

The motor does not sound like it’s struggleing at all in either direction, sounds like it’s spinning very freely, but when it would only run in one direction (down) with the switch wired wrong, my neighbor said he ran it and after a bit, the sound changed, so maybe something broke at that time.   This was before he took the line off and got any fluid out.

A couple days ago, I had that manual relief screw you mentioned out and ran it but didn’t know what it was for.   Good to know what it’s for now – Thank you!

The line going to the top of the cylinder has no fluid coming out when operated in the down mode – so it’s likely the motor is not coupled to the pump as you suggested.

When I look at the exploded view at marineengine,  the pump is the “Prestolite” version.

Today, I just went and took the photo below, and, without doing anything more to it,  tried the in/out switch again and something new!  While the motor runs now, there is an erratic rattle sound, that erratically comes and goes, like two pieces of metal sharply clanking/rattling, so I suspect something is broken or has come loose.   Your comment about the coupling from motor to pump comes to mind, so next, I’ll take the motor off the pump and see what I find.  The exploded view at Marine engine may help.

I have found no external leaks.

It’s raining today, so I’ll likely get to it agian tomorrow and hopefully find the problem .

Thank you again!

Dave

 

PS:  Before doing all this, are you completely sure that you are getting that manual relief screw seated completely in the unit, sometimes these things can be tough to turn…

[outbdnut2]

I took the tilt/trim motor and pump off and found the problem with the tilt/trim.  The end of the motor shaft has flats on each side that mate with the pump.  The flats had been sheared/ground off, leaving just a somewhat circular detail where the flats should be, with only about 1/16th inch of the flats remaining that were  slightly too high to mate withthe pump.  There were metal grindings there.   The pump turned fine each direction and appears to be moving fluid when I turned it with a screwdriver  that was about the size of the flats that were ground off the end of the motor shaft.  The mating area on the pump looks undamaged.  I’m thinking this happened when the pump was miswired to only pump in the down direction, and he said he tried and tried and then the sound of the pump abruptly changed while forcing the down direction.   So – Need another pump motor or a whole Prestolite pump/motor assembly.  I’ll post on the classified board and a couple other places to see if anyone is parting out a motor and has one.  The neighbor I’m helping with this doesn’t want to spend the $$ for an available new, after market trim/tilt  motor if he doesn’t have to.  I’ve found new ones online by Sierra, RareElectrical, and ELM.  (Never heard of RareEelectrical or ELM).

I took the motor and pump off the housing separately.  I looked at removing the whole assembly and got one bolt out, one loose, but can’t see or get my finger in there to feel, the bottom bolt head – looks like I have to take the bottom of the hydraulic cylinder loose and swing it out of the way to get at that bottom bolt.

A few posts back, I think a coupler from motor to pump was mentioned, but there was no coupler there, and none showing in the exploded view at marineengine; and no space to put a coupler.  Maybe I’m remembering that wrong.

Thanks again for all the help!

Dave

 

[fleetwin]

Not sure about an actual coupler, sometimes it just pulls right out of the pump assembly, will have to look at a parts breakdown.  Just looked, didn’t see a coupler.  So is the shaft broken, or is the pump broken?  Will be tough to find a decent used part at a reasonable price for sure.   Just reread your post, seems like the motor shaft is broken off.

Like I say, that whole power trim/tilt assembly can be removed from the engine fairly easily, but you would have to remove the lower mounting nuts to get it off.  I don’t think you will be able to get at that lower motor/pump housing reservoir bolt without removing the tilt cylinder.

[outbdnut2]

Yes – This motor shaft pulls rignt out of the pump assembly and the end of the motor shaft is twisted off, but the mating part of the pump is OK with no signs of wear – it must be much harder metal then the motor shaft.  I’ve put a Wanted post at the Classified board here and on the aomci facebook pages, so I’ll see if anyone happens to be parting out a motor.  If that fails, I’ll call the guys at  Twincityoutboard.com .   They are a huge outboard junkyard just south of Minneapolis, with over 1000 motors going back to the early 1900s.  Their yard and retail store is about an hour’s drive from me – I usually go to them last because they can get a bit pricey.   If all else fails, my neighbor will have to spend  $160 to $225, which is the range I found online for aftermarket new motors.

I’ll let know what I come up with.

Dave

 

 

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