Home Forum Ask A Member 1977 9.9 Johnson ignition troubleshooting procedure

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  • #7043
    outbdnut2
    Participant

      US Member

      I’m working on a 1977 9.9 Johnson for a friend (Model 10R77A). It has no spark on either cylinder. The Clymer manual has resistance readings for the driver and secondary coils, but further testing calls for a "CD-voltmeter" to measure driver pulses. Is there a way of doing some tests on the powerpack with a VOM? The motor hasn’t been run for several years and the secondary transformer cores are rusty – is that indicative of bad coils? I doubt just rust on the cores is an issue, as the insulation looks good.
      Is there a part know to nearly always be the culprit on this model?

      I just ordered an "Electronic Specialties model 640" Peak Voltage reading adapter for a VOM at Amazon for $26.00, so if there is no other good way to troubleshoot before it gets here, this will give me the "CD Voltmeter" function.
      Dave

      #57888
      frankr
      Participant

        US Member

        Wait for your adapter. Events happen too quickly in that system for a regular VOM to respond to them without the adapter.

        #57890
        Mumbles
        Participant

          These ignition systems need good grounds on both the coils and the power pack for them to work correctly. Rust or corrosion could have worked its way under the ground lugs making for a poor circuit. A quick dressing with a wire wheel or coarse sandpaper should make it good again. With both cylinders down, I’d suspect the power pack ground or a short in the wiring to the kill switch.

          #57953
          fleetwin
          Participant

            US Member - 2 Years

            Be careful with the terms/names here…When you say "driver coil", I think of the low tension ignition used on earlier models. The part you are referring to is called the "sensor coil". I’m not trying to be a grammar geek, just want to avoid confusion. Did you do the resistance tests on the sensor and charge coils? If so, I am assuming they checked out OK, these parts are simple and don’t fail very often.
            And yes, the external coil laminations do get pretty rusty/nasty looking, but the coils work OK anyway. Did you check the primary/secondary resistance of the coils? Seems unlikely that you have two bad coils.
            Like mumbles/frank said, KISS is best here, don’t overlook the basics….Grounds and stop switch. The other basic thing to check are the amphenol plug connections. Do you have the amphenol tools? It is tough to remove/install the pins/sockets without these tools, which brings me back to the simple check for the stop switch. It is tough to eliminate the stop switch from the ignition system without removing the stop switch pin from the three pin coil connector. Checking the stop switch with an ohm meter, or simply disconnecting the stop switch ground does not guarantee it is not causing a problem/draining the powerpack.

            #57975
            outbdnut2
            Participant

              US Member
              quote fleetwin:

              Be careful with the terms/names here…When you say “driver coil”, I think of the low tension ignition used on earlier models. The part you are referring to is called the “sensor coil”. I’m not trying to be a grammar geek, just want to avoid confusion. Did you do the resistance tests on the sensor and charge coils? If so, I am assuming they checked out OK, these parts are simple and don’t fail very often.

              Thanks for the insight. By Driver coil, I meant the coil that generates the voltage that gets stored in the capacitor that the SCR discharges to the ignition coils when the sensor coil tells it to. I have not started troubleshooting at all yet, and just assumed this coil would be accessible. Does the sensor coil do double-duty and also generate this voltage?
              My experience with CD ignitions goes back to the Delta Mark 10 aftermarket automotive units of the 1970s where I could access all the discrete parts to troubleshoot. Back then, myself and about 20 other electrical engineers like myself at Honeywell got a price break ordering over 30 of these units and put them on our cars. Since I coordinated the order, when a few of them broke down over the next couple of years, I was the one that got to troubleshoot and repair them. The main difference is these old automotive units had 12 volts available and used a power inverter circuit to convert to AC and feed a step-up transformer to get 400 volts for the discharge capacitor – these units also used the existing car’s breaker points to trigger, so no sense coil. I’d like to see the complete electronic circuit that is potted up in the Johnson armature plate just for my own curiousity.
              Dave

              #57977
              outbdnut2
              Participant

                US Member
                quote outbdnut2:

                quote fleetwin:

                Be careful with the terms/names here…When you say “driver coil”, I think of the low tension ignition used on earlier models. The part you are referring to is called the “sensor coil”. I’m not trying to be a grammar geek, just want to avoid confusion. Did you do the resistance tests on the sensor and charge coils? If so, I am assuming they checked out OK, these parts are simple and don’t fail very often.

                Thanks for the insight. By Driver coil, I meant the coil that generates the voltage that gets stored in the capacitor that the SCR discharges to the ignition coils when the sensor coil tells it to. I have not started troubleshooting at all yet, and just assumed this coil would be accessible. Does the sensor coil do double-duty and also generate this voltage?
                My experience with CD ignitions goes back to the Delta Mark 10 aftermarket automotive units of the 1970s where I could access all the discrete parts to troubleshoot. Back then, myself and about 20 other electrical engineers like myself at Honeywell got a price break ordering over 30 of these units and put them on our cars. Since I coordinated the order, when a few of them broke down over the next couple of years, I was the one that got to troubleshoot and repair them. The main difference is these old automotive units had 12 volts available and used a power inverter circuit to convert to AC and feed a step-up transformer to get 400 volts for the discharge capacitor – these units also used the existing car’s breaker points to trigger, so no sense coil. I’d like to see the complete electronic circuit that is potted up in the Johnson armature plate and/or power pack just for my own curiousity.
                Dave

                #57978
                outbdnut2
                Participant

                  US Member
                  quote outbdnut2:

                  quote outbdnut2:

                  quote fleetwin:

                  Be careful with the terms/names here…When you say “driver coil”, I think of the low tension ignition used on earlier models. The part you are referring to is called the “sensor coil”. I’m not trying to be a grammar geek, just want to avoid confusion. Did you do the resistance tests on the sensor and charge coils? If so, I am assuming they checked out OK, these parts are simple and don’t fail very often.

                  Thanks for the insight. By Driver coil, I meant the coil that generates the voltage that gets stored in the capacitor that the SCR discharges to the ignition coils when the sensor coil tells it to. I have not started troubleshooting at all yet, and just assumed this coil would be accessible. Does the sensor coil do double-duty and also generate this voltage?
                  My experience with CD ignitions goes back to the Delta Mark 10 aftermarket automotive units of the 1970s where I could access all the discrete parts to troubleshoot. Back then, myself and about 20 other electrical engineers like myself at Honeywell got a price break ordering over 30 of these units and put them on our cars. Since I coordinated the order, when a few of them broke down over the next couple of years, I was the one that got to troubleshoot and repair them. The main difference is these old automotive units had 12 volts available and used a power inverter circuit to convert to AC and feed a step-up transformer to get 400 volts for the discharge capacitor – these units also used the existing car’s breaker points to trigger, so no sense coil. I’d like to see the complete electronic circuit that is potted up in the Johnson armature plate and/or power pack just for my own curiousity.
                  Dave

                  #57981
                  fleetwin
                  Participant

                    US Member - 2 Years

                    Feel a bit out of my element, your electronics knowledge far surpasses mine for sure, but will try!
                    OK, your "driver coil" terminology equates OMC’s "charge coil". I find OMC’s terminology very confusing as well, because the term charge coil makes one think of an alternator or battery charging circuit, which is not the case. The charge coil is just what you described: "the coil that generates the AC voltage that gets stored in the capacitor…….". The charge coil is just a simple winding of wire that generates voltage when the flywheel magnets pass by it. The charge coil voltage/current is rectified to DC and stored in the capacitor inside the "power pack". The charge coil leads are found in the four pin connector coming out from under the flywheel, the leads are brown and brown/yellow tracer. I don’t have the exact resistance spec, but am thinking it is around 400 ohms, and there should be no shorts to ground or the mag plate.
                    The component I was referring to, the sensor coil is another simple winding found under the flywheel, its leads are found in the four pin connector and are black and white/black tracer. This component is what sends the low voltage to the powerpack which operates the SCRs allowing the capacitor to send its stored voltage to either one of the to coil primary circuits. One sensor coil operates both coils because the powerpack can sense sensor voltage polarity. The sensor resistance is usually about 15 ohms, and there should be no shorts to ground/mag plate.
                    Again, these components are just simple windings and rarely fail. They do get damaged physically when hit by flywheel magnets or debris under the flywheel. The other obvious damage to look for is damage to the harness/leads coming out from under the flywheel, wires can get melted from overheating or if they have been rubbing on the flywheel. Taped up bulges in the harness are usually good indications of previous harness/wiring repairs.
                    All the fancy electronic circuitry is inside the powerpack, there are no resistance tests that can be performed on the powerpack with the exception of testing its ground lead. Resistance between the powerpack ground lead and a good engine block ground should be less than one ohm.
                    The engine is shut off by killing spark, the powerpack’s capacitor is drained to ground when you press the stop button. The best way to test for stop button problems is to eliminate it from the circuit, and the best way to do this is to push the black stop button pin out of the three wire rubber connector next to the coils, then reconnect the plug connector and try for spark again. Please do not simply cut the leads, then make repairs with butt connectors. I’m sure you can figure out some way of pushing that pin out of the connector. Soak the rubber boot in alcohol first, this usually helps loosen things up a bit. Please do not use WD 40 or any sort of lubricant spray, this may cause shorts later on.
                    Finally, it is pretty simple to just substitute another known good powerpack. No need to remove the old powerpack, just substitute the connections and ground the substitute pack’s ground lead using one of the thermostat cover screws.
                    Hope this is helpful to you…Don
                    PS-The powerpack substitution test is not a substitute for doing basic tests, but can at least tell you something….All components should be tested before just replacing the powerpack to ensure a marginal component does not damage the powerpack in the future…

                    #58072
                    outbdnut2
                    Participant

                      US Member

                      Don – Thanks for the good description of the system, and yes – what I called driver coil is the charge coil. I have a Clymer manual but it’s vague on some items. Reading it a bit, they do have resistance readings. FYI: they are saying that sensor coil should be 30 to 50 ohms. The charge coils prior to 1985 should be 500-600 ohms, but 400 to 550 ohms on 1973 to 1982 electric start models, and 550-600 ohms after 1984. All reading should be done cold.

                      I wish there were ohmmeter tests for the power pack like the mid to late 1980s Mercurys have – I’ve had good success troubleshooting a couple of those with a procedure someone on this board gave me a couple years ago.

                      My peak reading voltage test adapter should be here within a week and then I’ll start troubleshooting. If need be, I’ll haul out a functional 15 Hp I have of the same era and compare some readings. All this discussion has made me curious now as to what the waveforms look like at various terminals of the power pack, etc. I may take my oscilloscope out to the garage and do some looking on a running motor. My O-scope is no good for troubleshooting a dead motor because it is not a "storage" scope so I won’t be able to see one or two pulses as I pull it over. I can also swap parts between the 15 and the dead 9.9 as a way of troubleshooting, but I try to avoid doing that because it’s more work, and I run the risk of maybe killing a powerpack if there is something wrong with the bad motor that’s killing powerpacks – like the spark voltage somehow getting into it.

                      I’d much rather troubleshoot the old magneto ignitions any day!
                      Thanks again Don

                      #58112
                      fleetwin
                      Participant

                        US Member - 2 Years

                        OK, yes, just looked in a 78 book for a 4hp with CD2 ignition: charge coil: 575+/-75 ohms sensor coil: 40+/-10 ohms….
                        I am assuming you have checked these components, and the resistance readings are within tolerance and there are no shorts to ground. Yes, there are output tests for these components, but you will need the peak reading voltmeter, or the adapter you mentioned….
                        Did you check the grounds using the low ohms scale?
                        Did you remove the stop switch black wire pin from the coil three pin connector and restest for spark?
                        Did you have a look at the pin/socket connections in both connectors? This is an all too often over looked simple problem/repair.
                        Again, the amphenol pin/socket tools make this process much easier, use only alcohol to "lube" the rubber boots (helps pin/socket removal as well), using any other spray lubes will create a short between the connections and problems down the road….D

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