Home Forum Ask A Member 1956 Evinrude 15hp Throttle Q and Fouling

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  • #239857
    andreaskc
    Participant

      Finally coaxed the flywheel inspection bolts off without stripping them tonight. Few initial findings…..

      Coils not cracked
      Coil/Points/Condensers all look very clean/shiny

      One of the coils still has a fabric coated wire connected to the points and looks slightly frail at the coil connection. The other coil has a nice heatshrunk plastic coated wire with modern writing on it.

      Observing the spark plug wires as they move when throttle is advanced to wide open shows that both wires, but especially the bottom cylinder wire is chafing against an exterior metal support and has made a significant dent into the plug wire…. not enough to show internal wire, but looks problematic.

      I think my plan is now to pull the flywheel, replace the solo fabric sheathed wire from coil to point and run new plug wires trying to avoid them from making physical contact with metal frame as they are advanced.

      #239862
      andreaskc
      Participant

        Other commentary…. I think I now understand how the cam roller works with the throttle. I don’t have a indicator band on the handle so hard to know “where” start is supposed to be, but I did look thru a book I bought of “cheap outboards” which has a good diagram/explanation of this…. currently by the time the roller hits the indicator the throttle plate inside the carb has already moved a bit, and not the book explanation of that the roller should be at indicator when the slack in the linkage just starts to turn the carb plate open.

        So, sounds like the carb is opening a little sooner than expected at the indicator, any ideas how this would make the motor behave at this timing? Would adjusting it back some make it idle even better?

        • This reply was modified 2 years, 10 months ago by andreaskc.
        #239868
        crosbyman
        Participant

          Canada Member - 2 Years

          you can always try to set the carb control arm / roller at different locations by unscrewing the bolt under the fw….do some testing

          as to electricals…why not go all the way for peace of mind 10 miles out. Chineese coils are cheap a few feet of metallic 7mm & boots will solve any problem with old wires/coils

          https://www.ebay.ca/itm/1-5-40HP-Outboard-Engines-Ignition-Coil-For-OMC-Johnson-Evinrude-584477-582995-/203247943567?hash=item2f52857f8f

          Belden 7mm metallic ignition kits for old cars work great , not expensive per wire & boots are factory assembled 🙂

          Joining AOMCI has priviledges 🙂

          • This reply was modified 2 years, 10 months ago by crosbyman.
          • This reply was modified 2 years, 10 months ago by crosbyman.
          #239920
          fleetwin
          Participant

            US Member - 2 Years

            It is kind of hard to avoid having the plug wires rub/jam on that bracket at WOT, just the way it was designed….The minor wear shown in your pictures does not look like an issue and would most likely affect the engine at that WOT position before slow speeds. I don’t really understand your description what you are seeing under the flywheel inspection plate, perhaps just one coil was replaced, older coil primary leads had the fabric cover wire you mentioned. Did both coils look identical?
            I don’t want you to rip this ignition system apart needlessly, you really need the OMC puller to get the flywheel off, something I’m assuming you don’t have. I guess my next step would be to use the neon inline testers to see if the lower plug is actually fouling, or if you are losing spark to the lower cylinder. It is best to do this testing during sunset or sun up so the neon testers are easier to see…

            #239921
            fleetwin
            Participant

              US Member - 2 Years

              Other commentary…. I think I now understand how the cam roller works with the throttle. I don’t have a indicator band on the handle so hard to know “where” start is supposed to be, but I did look thru a book I bought of “cheap outboards” which has a good diagram/explanation of this…. currently by the time the roller hits the indicator the throttle plate inside the carb has already moved a bit, and not the book explanation of that the roller should be at indicator when the slack in the linkage just starts to turn the carb plate open.

              So, sounds like the carb is opening a little sooner than expected at the indicator, any ideas how this would make the motor behave at this timing? Would adjusting it back some make it idle even better?

              • This reply was modified 2 years, 10 months ago by andreaskc.

              Again, not sure I understand what you are describing here. Cam roller pick up adjustment is not necessarily the “start position”. The carb butterfly should just begin to start opening when the line on the throttle cam bisects the rubber cam roller. This adjustment can be tricky due to all the slop in the carb throttle linkage. In other words, the linkage rods might start moving at this point, but that doesn’t mean the butterfly shaft is actually starting to open due to the somewhat normal “slop” in that linkage…
              The engine will run a bit lean off idle and bog on acceleration if the carb butterfly shaft starts to open before the mark bisects the roller
              The engine will run a bit rich off idle and may stutter on acceleration if the carb butterfly starts to open after the mark bisects the roller.
              Again, this adjustment is to synchronize the carburetor and ignition system and has nothing to do with the start position on the tiller twist grip. The engine can be started either above or below this position.

              #239940
              andreaskc
              Participant

                Yes, both coils look pretty new and identical. Almost all the wiring inside looks new… except the one fabric covered wire from one of the coils.

                The spark plug wires do “look” oldish…. whatever that means… they have a bunch of nicks on them, no real writing of any kind, and oxidized. I tend to not want to replace something especially if expect it to be working…. I don’t know that I want to just go replacing coils/condensers/etc given that they all look new and don’t know they are actually broke…. althou maybe the plug wires and one coil wire that look 60 years old are due for updating?

                No I don’t have an OMC specific flywheel puller, thought I could retrofit one of my pullers to bolt into the three bolts and pull against the center flywheel bolt…. the “old outboard” book I have talks about pulling up on the flywheel with hand while tapping on center puller applying some pressure on it. Book has some OMC/Evinrude service bulletins in it with 60s style helpful pictures along with tips on handling the flywheel key on reinstall.

                On the throttle cam, the way you explained it is what I now understand, there were some early comments I saw about it having to do something with where “start” is on the handle. Sounds like it currently is running a bit rich off idle, not by much but is some. I can see that the butterfly shaft does start turning before the mark bisects the roller.

                Hard to get good pictures of some of the dark areas with the phone… the bite out of the spark plug wire does look pretty decent where it rubs and yes it looks difficult to prevent it from rubbing… there doesn’t seem to be much clearance where it needs to come out of the plate at an angle and make the turn going down at WOT. The little plastic wire covers crosbyman has in his attachments look pretty effective thou?

                In other thoughts, checking the bleeder looks like I need to pull the entire carb off…there a gasket around this that will need replacing or carefully pulling can be reused? I suspicion looking at this….

                #239941
                crosbyman
                Participant

                  Canada Member - 2 Years

                  CAREFULlY pop the carb back plate…I have never broken a gasket yet and I reused all of them

                  careful not do damage the reeds on the purge valve !!

                  as to condensers … very basic tests (ohms and capacitance kicks) can prove them bad but basic tests can never simulate life high voltage operation only a condenser tester can do that.

                  in other words you can test for bad ones but you can’t fully test for good ones with just a VOM

                  see parts 1-4 on condensers…
                  https://wrcoutboards.org/magazine-articles/

                  Joining AOMCI has priviledges 🙂

                  • This reply was modified 2 years, 10 months ago by crosbyman.
                  • This reply was modified 2 years, 10 months ago by crosbyman.
                  • This reply was modified 2 years, 10 months ago by crosbyman.
                  #239947
                  fleetwin
                  Participant

                    US Member - 2 Years

                    OK, well if both the coils look new, I don’t know what the fabric covered wire could be…Newer coils do not use fabric covered wires…Does this engine have some sort of external stop/safety switch added, perhaps that is the fabric covered wire… You can try using a generic puller with the three bolts going into the flywheel holes…Perhaps the flywheel won’t put up a fight and pop off….But, if it doesn’t want to give up/come off easily, don’t keep wrestling with the generic set up…The bolts will probably snap off and you could get hurt. Sometimes using an impact gun on the center puller bolt helps pop the flywheel off…But again, I wouldn’t go digging into the ignition system until you confirm you have an actual ignition issue. Ripping things apart like this usually ends up adding to confusion and possibly creates new problems…Save the ignition overhaul for winter work unless you confirm there is an ignition issue now. .
                    Again, the roller might start to turn before the mark bisects the roller, but that does not mean the throttle shaft is actually starting to move/open…There is a lot of slop in that linkage. So, seeing the roller start to turn slightly before the cam bisects the roller sounds correct….Watch the actual throttle shaft and see when it actually starts to move, I’m betting it is fairly close to being correctly set…In any event, even if the adjustment is off a bit, this not going to make the plugs foul. And again, if the carb butterfly is opening too early, this usually has the effect of “lean off idle”, not rich….I know this seems counter intuitive, but is true…But, it is important to note that the carb butterfly must be completely closed at idle speed.

                    #239958
                    crosbyman
                    Participant

                      Canada Member - 2 Years

                      the closed carb butterfly concentrates the crankcase vacum pull on the carb idle circuit located on top where fuel drops down 3 VERY small holes. They must be clean and the only way to clean the idle circuit properly is to remove the top plug, clean the chamber and reinstall a new plug .

                      Joining AOMCI has priviledges 🙂

                      #243598
                      andreaskc
                      Participant

                        Had to deal with a few other projects, but back at this one.

                        I’ve pulled the flywheel, it has one newer German coil. Meter reads out 1.5/6.5k and is the top cylinder coil which has no problems.The other coil has an outlined M on it, looks older, fabric sheathed wires, no obvious cracks. It tests out 1.5 on primary and secondary 9/10 times doesn’t register but I can scratch on the wire pin and very inconsistently get a read out of 3.5k.

                        I did buy 2 new coils (cdi brand 183-4477) and used 1 to replace the bad coil and the new coil doesn’t spark. Both New cdi coils read out with 1.5/8.3k with multimeter so it seems it should work? I swapped the top/bottom coils and the German coil which was on top now successfully fires the bottom plug. I bought 2 just in case 1 was bad so I’ll try the other new cdi coil tomorrow. Skeptical thou? The laminations are definitely shorter, the leg going thru the windings is smaller. Seems like others have success with this model coil thou? Am I missing something?

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