Home Forum Ask A Member 1961 Johnson 40 (RDSL-23) stops pumping water

Viewing 10 posts - 11 through 20 (of 38 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #243968
    fleetwin
    Participant

      US Member - 2 Years

      OK, well I too, am very concerned about the condition of that gearcase…It is badly eroded/corroded from salt or some other electrolysis issue…There may be an issue with the casting underneath the water pump that connects the pick up to the area under the pump….Creating an air leak…This area is full of water when you first start it, explaining why you see water flow for a few seconds…Once started some of the water down there is displaced by exhaust pressure, which may be sneaking its way into the water intake path….I’m not referring to the mating surface between the SS impeller plate and gearcase housing, I am referring to the cast in water passage leading up from the water pick ups. You have tried a new impeller, then reinstalled the old one just in case the new one was NG. Same results with both. You mention the aluminum impeller housing looks “OK”, and you have replaced the seal. There is a tiny vent hole in there that could be plugged though, which could explain this…Sorry, don’t have a picture, perhaps someone else can post one.
      OK, seems like you realize that you can’t judge cooling operation from the upper exhaust discharge very well…You should see a continuous gurgling of water coming out of the thermostat pocket while running with the cap removed…Keep in mind that running with the cap removed might just cause most of the water to spill out all over which would explain why you don’t see much coming out of that choke water port…The thermostat housing is upstream of the cylinder jackets. Nonetheless, you have convinced me that the engine has a cooling issue…Water should not stop pouring out of that thermostat pocket with the cap removed running in neutral. Although running the engine in forward gear does help force water up and into the pump…So, a marginal pump could exhibit a condition where the engine pump fine in gear, but fades out in neutral like you describe…
      OK, yes, it does look as though someone did replace the engine block, perhaps a powerhead…..But, the engine seemed to cool OK that last time you used it many years ago….But, since that time, mice made a home in there…Mice pee is very corrosive indeed. Was there a mouse nest inside the gearcase exhaust cavity when you removed it to do the water pump job?
      And yes, you are correct, that little check valve spring is very light indeed, almost non existent. That check valve is there only to keep the cooling water from “short circuiting” out of the block without circulating through it first…So yes, there would be very little resistance on it. This is a relatively complex cooling system, which is why it has two water tubes….Cool water is meant to circulate back down through the pump to help heat up the water, warm up the engine….
      Frank will correct me, or point out more areas to be inspected/checked….
      The easiest test for what I suspect would be to install another known good gearcase…I realize this is something you don’t have laying around though….I sure hope I my suspicions are incorrect…D

      #243969
      fleetwin
      Participant

        US Member - 2 Years

        OK, just thought of something you could try the next time you have the gearcase/pump off….
        Remove the side intake plate…Now, find some soft clay or something you could stuff up into the passage that leads up into the bottom of the pump…Please be careful, don’t use anything you can’t get back out of there completely…I sure don’t want you to create another issue leaving clay behind in that passage to really plug things up…Perhaps soft clay is not the best idea, but you understand what I am trying to accomplish. Now, use a syringe/meat baster to fill the cavity under the SS impeller plate, don’t overfill it though causing it to leak over the top. You will see water leaking out if there is some sort of crack or corrosion issue in that passage….

        #243977
        jdunham
        Participant

          Thanks Fleetwin,
          Ill go through your response in order.

          Yes the gearcase is really rough. I am going to replace it once I know the rest of the motor is sound. I also want to make it a short shaft anyway.

          I still have the gearcase off so I will inspect those passages again, but as far as I can tell the waste oil coating the inside pretty much prevented any corrosion there despite how ugly the outside is.
          After acquiring the motor 30 something years ago, it was a mostly freshwater motor with a seasonal trip to the ocean lasting 4-7 days. It did not live in salt. Electrolysis is more likely. I do know that the wiring on the boat was really rough and usually had issues (now its just gone, problem solved).
          The impeller housing has minor pitting but not in locations that could let air in and not enough to leak ALL of the water by the lobes. If I just had low flow I would consider looking for a new housing.
          The vent hole is clear, I noticed it when I replaced the impeller. It had been plugged with gunk previously but I replaced the impeller before trying to start the motor the first time. I checked the hole again when I sealed the water pump and it was still clear.
          Wouldnt the thermostat housing need to be downstream of the cylinder jacket so that the thermostat was seeing engine temp instead of lake temp?
          when I was doing my choke supply test I reinstalled the thermostat and cover to make sure there would be positive pressure in the water jacket.
          The mouse damage is ugly but superficial. The metal corrosion is just the surface and will clean up fine. Just a lot of missing paint. I will worry about aesthetics when/if the function is good. They mostly wrecked hoses and wires.
          There was no indication of a mouse nest in the exhaust cavity but there were some droppings down inside the lowest area that has to drain out the weep hole. I flushed it all out when I cleaned out the weep hole.
          When I was pushing water backwards through the system, I expected the water pressure to force the little check valve shut and more or less stop flow. Chalk this up to me lack of understanding of the water path inside these motors.
          I agree, a known good gearcase and impeller would be a great test. I am watching the various local adds and will snag a parts motor or gearcase if I see it. As noted, if the problem is more serious and related to the motor itself I dont want buy a gearcase for an anchor.
          I like your leakdown test suggestion. I was letting the sealant cure so the gearcase is still on my bench. Do you think I can do the same test with the housing and impeller installed? I can fill through the outlet and return grommets.

          #243985
          fleetwin
          Participant

            US Member - 2 Years

            You can certainly try, I guess you would just have to have the impeller veins oriented correctly. Try it and see if water runs out of the side plate…If it does, then plug the side plate water passage…

            #243986
            fleetwin
            Participant

              US Member - 2 Years

              I agree, you don’t want to lay out money for a gearcase if the rest of it is in rough shape….But, just cuz it “looks rough”, doesn’t mean it is…
              The water fills the outer exhaust cover first, then is directed down around the cylinder jackets……Once the water reaches the thermostat pocket and fills the cylinders, it is either directed out of the head through the thermostat, or if the thermostat is closed, the water is directed back down the the water pump through that little check valve….
              Do I have it “kinda right” Frank??

              #244010
              frankr
              Participant

                US Member

                Not meaning to be a pessimist, but you do realize that motor has long outlived its salt-water life expectancy, don’t you? Mine lasted four years in salt water use. Nevertheless, there is hope.

                Here are a couple of things you might consider. Take a look at the gasket edges where the exhaust cover meets the block. You will see the edge of a metal baffle plate between the two gaskets. If that plate is thin (about as thick as a credit card), and stainless steel, that is a good sign. But if it is thicker (close to 1/8″) and made of aluminum, it may have a hole corroded through it, allowing exhaust to blow into the cooling system.

                Secondly, those motors have a haven for electrolysis at the juncture of the head gasket and cylinder block. The aluminum surrounding the iron cylinder liner and sealed by a copper/brass fire ring in the gasket corrodes away, resulting in head gasket leakage. This is what killed mine.

                Admittedly either of these conditions would normally result in water intrusion into a cylinder, but who knows? And removing either of them could destroy whatever is left.

                With that, I wish you good luck with your worthy project.

                #244011
                jdunham
                Participant

                  Thanks Frank, I understand the harsh life of salt. Do you feel the same way for the freshwater use with a seasonal 1 week in the salt? I cant speak to its life before my father bought it but after that it was only those short trips once a summer most years.

                  The inner exhaust plate is the thinner SS type. Can these still erode and get pin holes? I would take the outer cover off to check it but I am fairly sure I will break several of the screws so have been hesitant to try it.

                  I had held off on pulling the head because it has good compression and I did not want to damage the head gasket. If an assessment of the condition of the metal at the liner and aluminum juncture is needed, I will take it off. This should also get me a better idea of the condition inside the water jacket.

                  Does my fairly good, matched compression readings of 120PSI give you any pause? should I hold off pulling the head?

                  This may turn into an educational experience in learning the water path in these motors even if it cant be saved. At this point I’m both frustrated and curious and want to know what’s going on even if it cant be fixed.

                  #244020
                  frankr
                  Participant

                    US Member

                    Well, to tell the truth, mine was used often in salt water skiing and fishing, with fresh water flush a soon as we got home. Your experience may vary.

                    I wouldn’t mess with the SS exhaust plate. It would be rare to find one of those with holes or cracks.

                    As for the head gasket, that’s a judgement call. Good compression and no water intrusion into the cylinders is a good sign. Personally, I’d hold off at least for now.

                    And as for the water path, you may already know this, but that is a thermostat controlled recirculating cooling system. Water from the pump goes up to the powerhead, circulates through the powerhead, and is presented to the thermostat. If the ‘stat decides it is not up to temp, it stays closed and the water goes down through the plastic check valve and returns back to the pump via the second water tube and is recirculated. This continues till the ”stat says it is warm enough and opens and the water is discharged and replaced by fresh lake water. It should be noted that some water will always be discharged, regardless of thermostat state. This is necessary to cool the exhaust system. Also, it is not an either-or situation. The thermostat is constantly checking the temperature and opening or closing as necessary to maintain a proper temperature. It is normal for it to stay in recirc mode most of the time at slow/idle speeds in cool lake water.

                    #244022
                    jdunham
                    Participant

                      I pulled the head. It looks really good in there. Some light scoring of the cylinders but with 120 on both im not worried about it.
                      Pictures attached.

                      #244025
                      frankr
                      Participant

                        US Member

                        Wow, that does look great. Sorry for the wild goose chase.

                      Viewing 10 posts - 11 through 20 (of 38 total)
                      • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.