1957 Evinrude Big Twin 35 Skeg interferes with gears.

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  • January 21, 2022 at 8:14 pm #253207
    boscovius
    Participant

      Bobw,

      As I have been able to assemble the unit without the pinion and have the prop shaft turn freely, I think that rules out the possibility of interference between the front bearing race and it’s seat.   Since the trouble only appears when the pinion is installed, I have to go with what fleetwin said about it having to do with the pinion and the forward/reverse gear mesh.  You can see from one of the pictures that the flat edge of that small envelope shows pinion bearing race is at level or just below the level of the upper lower unit housing.  Everything turns nicely when it isn’t fully tightened, so I keep thinking:

      1.  The pinion is riding too proud and thus grinding too hard against the forward and reverse gears when fully tightened.

      2. The gears and pinion are not from a matched set (they are not) and the issue resides there.

      3. Something so woefully obvious that I’ll smack myself in the face when I finally see it.

      Any comments on the pinion bearing race photo?

       

      January 21, 2022 at 8:56 pm #253208
      bobw
      Participant

        US Member - 1 Year (includes $3 online payment fee)

        OK, I missed the part in your last message where you had the driveshaft and pinion installed again.  I’m not sure on the roller bearing in the 35hp gearcase but I know on the RD-18 gearcase the pinion bearing race seats a little below the face of the opening, i.e. they are not flush like in your picture.   Have you checked to see if the roller bearing in your case is fully seated in the housing?  See picture from my RD-18.   Your bearing is different than this but maybe it’s not fully seated?

        08-Pinion-Bearing-Race-Installed

        Bob

        1937 Champion D2C Deluxe Lite Twin
        1954 Johnson CD-11
        1957 Evinrude Fastwin 18
        1958 Johnson QD-19
        1958 Johnson FD-12
        1959 Johnson QD-20

        “Every 20 minute job is only a broken bolt away from a 3-day project.”
        "Every time you remove a broken or seized bolt an angel gets his wings."

        • This reply was modified 2 years, 2 months ago by bobw.
        • This reply was modified 2 years, 2 months ago by bobw.
        • This reply was modified 2 years, 2 months ago by bobw.
        January 21, 2022 at 10:04 pm #253213
        boscovius
        Participant

          Bobw.

          That’s the kind of evidence I was looking for.  Not the same gear case, but close enough to give me more reason to pull the bearing and make sure I’ve got the seat 100% free of debris.  It’s been a long time since I put that in and I have no idea if I was careless in that regard.  I have tried to fully seat the bearing with a hammer and a wooden dowel, but what you see in the picture is what I was able to come up with.  Probably Sunday I’ll get a chance to get the bearing puller out and see what I come up with.

          January 23, 2022 at 1:26 pm #253266
          boscovius
          Participant

            Ok, so I went to remove the pinion bearing and the fight I anticipated failed to materialize.  Popped right out with the first gentle stroke of the bearing puller!  I liked that.  I examined the bearing seat and found no debris or foreign objects.  What I did discover that I had not anticipated was that my upper and lower pinion thrust washers are exactly the same thickness.  I suspect one of these washers is wrong and that I have two of the thicker ones, causing the pinion to ride too high and bind against the forward and reverse gears.  The reason I say this is because the parts schematic shows two distinct part numbers for the upper and lower pinion thrust washers.

            I don’t know where to look to find the specs on these washers.  They are kind of pricey for what they are.  If anyone has these parts on hand and could put a caliper to them so I know which one is the thinner one the beer’s on me.

            • This reply was modified 2 years, 2 months ago by boscovius.
            January 23, 2022 at 7:19 pm #253300
            bobw
            Participant

              US Member - 1 Year (includes $3 online payment fee)

              Sounds like you may have found the trouble.   Since you have the washer part numbers, see if you can’t find some new old stock ones on Ebay.  Not hardware store cheap but certainly a lot less than Marine Engine or some other parts house.

              Bob

              1937 Champion D2C Deluxe Lite Twin
              1954 Johnson CD-11
              1957 Evinrude Fastwin 18
              1958 Johnson QD-19
              1958 Johnson FD-12
              1959 Johnson QD-20

              “Every 20 minute job is only a broken bolt away from a 3-day project.”
              "Every time you remove a broken or seized bolt an angel gets his wings."

              January 23, 2022 at 7:32 pm #253302
              boscovius
              Participant

                I think so Bob.  I was kinda hoping someone might have a number for me so I’d know which one to get, but they are available on Ebay for a lot less than Marine Engine is asking.  I’ve had the bench tied up too long already with this project and it’s time to move on, so I’ll probably just get some of those ordered and get on with it.  I’ll keep you posted as to how it works out.

                January 23, 2022 at 10:20 pm #253305
                fleetwin
                Participant

                  US Member - 2 Years

                  Well, I haven’t had too many of these apart that far, so am not familiar with the two different washers and their orientation..  But, there is definitely two different part numbers for the washers.

                  Evinrude Gear Case Parts for 1957 35hp 25532 Outboard Motor (marineengine.com)

                   

                  I know from working on other gearcases that there are definitely two different style thrust washers used and their orientation is critical as well.  I don’t have the manual near me, so can’t provide much info.  I’m betting that Frank has the answer for us….  I guess I get confused seeing that these thrust washers and bearing are over top of the pressed in pinion roller bearing (sandwiched between the pressed in lower pinion bearing and driveshaft needle bearing).

                  Nonetheless, improper thrust washers, or messed up orientation will affect pinion depth into the gears…

                  January 24, 2022 at 8:28 am #253315
                  frankr
                  Participant

                    US Member - 1 Year (includes $3 online payment fee)

                    The two thrust washers are different part numbers because they are different I.D. and O.D. diameters.  The larger O.D. goes in the case first, then the roller thrust bearing, then the smaller O.D. washer.  Why?  Because the one rotates with the pinion and the smaller O.D. allows it to rotate without rubbing the inside of the cavity.  Clear as mud????

                    January 24, 2022 at 11:42 am #253327
                    fleetwin
                    Participant

                      US Member - 2 Years

                      Well, your explanation makes sense.  So, just reversing the positioning could affect pinion height/depth?  Do the thrust washers have chamfers on them as well.

                      I know on newer engines, the upper washer is chamfered on its OD at the top to ensure it seats completely in the aluminum housing.  The lower washer is chamfered on its ID to make sure if sits squarely/completely on the pinion gear.

                      I suppose it is also possible that something is causing the forward and/or reverse gear to not be positioned properly as well.  This would have the effect of wanting to push the pinion upwards causing the binding.  I’m concerned about the first picture here that shows the reverse gear.  Something looks strange there, like it doesn’t belong/not right, perhaps it is just my eyes…  In any event, if either of the gears is not properly positioned, this will try to force the pinion upwards creating a binding…  But now that I think about it, inward gear positioning is limited by the clutch dog splines, so maybe it is impossible to have either gear in too far…  Guess I would have to look at it.

                      In any event, one further test could be conducted.  Reinstall the pinion, but remove the forward gear and assemble.  Repeat this test but leave out just the reverse gear.  If the pinion height is an issue, then the gearcase will jam with just one of the gears installed, but will jam on both tests.  If the gearcase jams with one gear installed, but not the other, then gear positioning is suspect.

                      January 24, 2022 at 12:04 pm #253328
                      frankr
                      Participant

                        US Member - 1 Year (includes $3 online payment fee)

                        I don’t know the chamfering answer.

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